"Good Will Come Out Of This"

By Matthew Cooper

She has been called the perfect wife for her devotion to George W. Bush and the Comforter in Chief for her calming demeanor after 9/11. But it would be a mistake to think of Laura Bush as a latter-day Mamie Eisenhower, who once said, "Ike runs the country; I turn the pork chops." The First Lady has views of her own, and just before jetting off to Florida with the President last week, she sat down in her East Wing office to speak with TIME's Matthew Cooper about a wide range of topics, including gay marriage, stem-cell research and how she deals with criticism of her husband.

TIME Since we're going to hear from the President in New York City about his plans for a second term, I want to get your take on what you want to do.

LAURA BUSH Well, I'm very interested in intervention programs for students who haven't learned to read by the time they get to middle school or high school or have such a low reading level that they're academically unsuccessful. The amazing thing about it is, because they have a larger vocabulary, because they've lived longer, they can be taught to read or move up several grade levels pretty quickly.

TIME And are you still hoping to get over to Afghanistan?

BUSH Absolutely. Yes, I'd love to meet women in Afghanistan--a lot of them.

TIME You've done a lot on heart disease.

BUSH Yes, and I'll continue to do women's health issues--including lifestyle changes, because women make so many lifestyle choices for their families. If they change their own behavior, they really can help their families as well.

TIME As an ex-smoker, have you been able to keep your girls from becoming smokers?

BUSH I'm not so sure about that.

TIME Are you still tempted?

BUSH Sure, of course. It's very difficult to quit.

TIME Any particular times?

BUSH And especially if you're under a lot of stress. I'm not saying that I am. [Laughter.]

TIME Critics throw out so many charges against the President. Is there any one that you found the most unfair?

BUSH I think they're all very unfair. [Laughter.] I really do.

TIME Do you think these swiftboat ads are unfair to John Kerry?

BUSH Do I think they're unfair? Not really. There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband.

TIME I wanted to ask you about stem-cell research because you brought it up the other day. Your greatest objection is that the other side is raising false hope. But your husband is running as the optimist. Isn't optimism good?

BUSH Sure, but not to say cures are at our fingertips, because they're not with stem cells. I know what it's like to have a parent suffer from Alzheimer's. And to give people the idea that there is going to be a cure next year for Alzheimer's--or for anything else--is just not right.

TIME We've all known people who have had difficulties having a child. Any thoughts about IVF treatments, which, as you know, wind up often discarding a fair number of embryos?

BUSH Whether or not people should be able to donate their--TIME Yes.

BUSH Sure, I think that sounds all right with me.

TIME I was curious if there are ways that people can help those who have gay people in their own lives and be supportive of them, even if they maybe disapprove--BUSH Well, I think everyone should be treated with dignity. And I know the President thinks that too. That's something he says all the time. And we're all different. And I particularly think that from having been a teacher, [one learns] to treat every child in their classroom with dignity and with respect.

TIME And did you have a take on this gay-marriage question?

BUSH Well, I think it's a debate. People want to be able to debate the issue, and that's exactly what the call for a constitutional amendment does. It opens the debate up. The people of the United States didn't really want the Massachusetts Supreme Court or the San Francisco mayor to make the choice for them. And we're seeing a debate on it. And I think that's good.

TIME Did you have a take on the amendment yourself?

BUSH I also think there should be a debate on the issue. People want to be able to talk about it--and come to terms with it, if that's what people decide.

TIME Right, but are you of an open mind about the amendment?

BUSH Sure.

TIME Have you ever had a gay couple stay with you in the White House or in Texas?

BUSH I'm sure we have.

TIME You wouldn't have any objection?

BUSH No, of course not.

TIME When you've had those private meetings with the families who have lost loved ones in the fighting, does that take its toll on the President?

BUSH No. Of course, they're very, very difficult--there's no doubt about it--for everybody. And the President wants to assure them that their child or their husband or their mother didn't lose their life in vain, and that good will come out of this, and that Iraq will be able to build itself and build a democracy and freedom. We already see the stories from Afghanistan--the idea that girls were forbidden to be educated or women couldn't leave their home without a male relative. The difference in the lives of those people is huge.

Is it difficult? Sure. It's difficult for everybody. It's difficult for the whole country. The thing is, we've seen our country and Americans make the difficult decisions over and over. From liberating France during World War II to back to the Civil War to abolish slavery, we have made the difficult decisions. Americans have, and they've made them with a lot of grace and a lot of courage. And that's what we're doing now.

TIME On a lighter note--BUSH Do we have a lighter note? [Laughter.]

TIME Well, it is summer. Are you reading anything trashy?

BUSH [It's] not trashy, but I'm having so much fun reading Lady Catherine Manning's mysteries--our new ambassador from Britain's wife, who writes by the pseudonym Elizabeth Ironside. And there is a mystery writer named Jacqueline Winspear, whose book is called Birds of a Feather. It's set right after World War I. I love to read mysteries for relaxation.

TIME There are so many books about the President and the presidency. Do you read anything that's current?

BUSH All those bad ones?

TIME Well, the good ones?

BUSH Yes, I might look through the good ones. I haven't really read any of the books about him or me.

TIME Are you surprised that the best-seller-list books are so partisan?

BUSH Whose best-seller list is that?

TIME The New York Times ...

BUSH I don't know how they get theirs, because that isn't always the case on some of the other lists--where Harry Potter is No. 1, 2 and 3 [Laughter]--of the real best sellers.