An Interview with Hafez Assad

By Henry Grunwald, Richard Duncan, KARSTEN PRAGER, Dean Fischer

Despite frequent accusations in the West--and the Hindawi trial in London--Syria has consistently denied links to international terrorism. President Hafez Assad firmly reiterated that denial in an interview in Damascus with a group of TIME journalists, including Time Inc. Editor in Chief Henry Grunwald, Assistant Managing Editor Richard Duncan, International Editor Karsten Prager and Middle East Bureau Chief Dean Fischer. Assad not only rejected allegations of a Syrian terror connection but as usual accused Israel of terrorist activity and of being responsible for Middle East tensions in general. Though he offered no evidence, Assad broached his own elaborate theory of an Israeli plot in the London El Al incident. Assad, 56, who suffered a serious heart ailment three years ago, appeared in sound health and full of confidence; no question, he said, would embarrass him. During a four-hour conversation, his words on terrorism and regional tensions were occasionally leavened by banter. At one point, in discussing Soviet-U.S. relations, Assad suggested that only an extraterrestrial power could make peace between the superpowers. He then went on, unexpectedly, to speak of his long-standing interest in UFOs, or unidentified flying objects, which he takes quite seriously. Excerpts from the interview:

Q. Mr. President, Syria has been accused of participating in terrorist activities and of helping terrorist groups. What is your response?

A. The accusations do not worry us because they do not represent the truth. Certain persons in the U.S. are leading this campaign. We believe the accusations do not represent a purely American will but a Zionist-Israeli will. If the matter were purely American, accusations would not have been directed at Syria, which has helped save Americans from possible death. Indeed, there would have been at least one accusation against Israel in terms of its own long history of terrorism. In 1948 Israel assassinated Count [Folke] Bernadotte, a Swedish citizen authorized by the U.N. to help reach a peaceful solution in Palestine. Israel committed a hijacking in 1954, seizing a Syrian civilian plane. Also in 1954 Israel engaged in subversive acts in Egypt, in the so-called Lavon scandal. [A reference to Israeli attacks on Western targets in Egypt. The strikes were made to appear as Egyptian terrorism in order to sour Egyptian-Western relations during sensitive negotiations on the withdrawal of British troops from the Suez Canal.] In 1973 Israel shot down a Libyan Boeing 727, causing the deaths of more than 100 civilian passengers . . . Last February, Israel hijacked a Libyan plane carrying a Syrian political delegation. These are some of the acts of terrorism committed by Israel.[*] Did the U.S. place Israel on the list of countries sponsoring terrorism?

Q. Do you want to reply to accusations of terrorism by merely charging that the other side commits similar acts? Why do you permit [the suspected terrorist] Abu Nidal to operate from Syria? Why don't you do something about the camps in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley from which some of the terrorist operations are launched?

A. I have not mentioned [Israel's] acts to suggest that we are doing the same. Syria has no connection with terror. We challenge [Western] intelligence services to prove that Syria was behind a single terrorist operation anywhere. No terrorist acts are carried out from Syria, by Syrians or others. We do advocate struggle against Israel, by all means, to expel the Israelis from our occupied land. But our struggle is here, on Arab land, not in Europe or the United States.

As for the Lebanon camps, we are not an international police force there. We are in Lebanon to serve our people and to fight Israeli terrorism. We also aim to stop the civil war and to help achieve reconciliation among the Lebanese.

Q. There is a trial in London involving an alleged attempt to blow up an Israeli jetliner last April. The person arrested in London is said to have had Syrian help.

A. This is merely an allegation without evidence. It is logical to conclude that some intelligence services, in the forefront the Israelis, are behind such acts because they benefit from them.

Q. Do you really believe that Israeli intelligence could be behind a plot against an Israeli plane?

A. Israeli intelligence, according to our conclusions, did not plan to blow up the plane. Rather, they planned an operation that would stop before a bombing and enable Israel to use the matter politically, as it is doing now. Theoretically, they made up a plan to down the plane and created a scenario for executing the plan. But the scenario ends at the plane's doorstep when the woman carrying the briefcase hands it over to an Israeli security officer. She insists on carrying it by hand so that the Israeli security officer can take it. Who is the real beneficiary from this affair? Syria has no interest: blowing up an airplane does not cause the end of Israel. Does Syria feel proud before the world that it has downed a civilian Israeli plane?

The [London] operation failed because its failure was premeditated. If Syria had had a hand in it, the accused would not be facing trial in a British court. The hijacker went to the Syrian embassy in London following the operation and told the staff he was cooperating with Syria. The embassy staff was surprised and contacted Syria's security authorities, who instructed the embassy to turn him out and to call the British police if he refused. The hijacker shouted, "You will see what I can do."

We have since learned that he was a Jordanian, Nezar Hindawi. He worked for one of the Arab newspapers published in London. He came to Syria once, a year before the incident, and said he had a Jordanian passport which had expired and which Jordanian authorities declined to renew. He requested a Syrian passport. It was granted--an ordinary matter that happens often in Arab countries.

If we were convinced that terrorist acts could serve our cause, we could carry them out. But terrorism serves Israel's interests--not ours.

Q. You have been helpful in the release of some foreign hostages in Lebanon. What are the chances of freeing the remaining hostages?

A. We will exert, as in the past, all possible efforts for the sake of the hostages. One of the obstacles is an American attitude that attempts to deal with the kidnapers from a position of strength.

Q. What is the alternative?

A. It is difficult to recommend one to the Americans. But how can the Administration achieve results while it threatens and curses the kidnapers? These kidnapers do not care about the things that a state may care about. They are not affected when you describe them as terrorists.

Q. Kidnaping is a crime in the U.S. The U.S. cannot deal with abductors as though it were dealing with businessmen.

A. Kidnaping is a crime in every country. The important thing now is how to save the hostages. If we talk to the kidnapers about law, will it help? If you were a kidnaper and you heard threats against you, you would do the opposite of what is required and take a harder line.

Q. There are Israeli and Syrian forces in Lebanon. The Israelis have proposed negotiations on security arrangements or guarantees in the Lebanon-Israel border zone. Is this possible?

A. Israel should implement Security Council Resolution 425 [which calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanese territory] and allow the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon to carry out its mission. The force should be deployed along the border, not inside Lebanon far from the frontier. In [U.N.] debates, Israel has been clearly blamed in connection with attacks against UNIFIL because Israel prevents it from discharging its duties.

Q. What about the Shi'ite Hizballah [Party of God] in Lebanon? Shouldn't it also be held responsible?

A. I stress that any such attacks are condemned by us--and all sides in Lebanon know our attitude.

Q. Do you ever wake up in the middle of the night, frustrated by what has happened in Lebanon since Syrian forces entered the country ten years ago?

A. I do not feel any frustration. The complications are difficult; outside intervention increases the complexity. But I believe the Lebanese will reach agreement, and we will continue to assist Lebanon no matter how long it takes.

Q. How do you assess the Iran-Iraq war?

A. We have condemned this war from the start. We tried, in the early days, to do something to halt it, but we received no response. Regrettably, the war has reached a point where it is hard for anyone to say he has a prescription to treat it.

Q. It seems that the Iranians now have the military edge. Do you agree?

A. It looks that way.

Q. Your relations with Iran are good. Suppose the Iranians won the war and occupied large parts of Iraq. Would this be acceptable to you?

A. The Iranians have often said they have no ambition to occupy a single foot of Iraqi territory or try to impose hegemony. They believe that their dispute is with the regime in Iraq which invaded their country and killed their people.

Q. Why is the Soviet Union seeking a new relationship with Israel? Will it help Moscow play a role in the peace process?

A. Our relations with the Soviet Union are good. We feel that it adopts a fair stand and seeks a just peace. I do not think that recent contacts with Israel have any importance in enlarging the role of the Soviet Union in the peace process.

Q. Suppose, as we discussed earlier, there were an extraterrestrial power and it tried to solve the Middle East's problems. What would you want it to do?

A. Certainly it would be a big power, and we would expect it to be unbiased.

Q. Would it make Israel disappear or shrink?

A. It would neither enlarge nor reduce Israel. It should offer advice to both sides, not deal with guns, planes or billions of dollars, or, if it does, [it should do so] evenhandedly. Why should the American taxpayer pay billions to Israel and not pay similar amounts to the Arabs? Why should he like some people and dislike others?

Q. The American taxpayer doesn't dislike the Arabs. He believes Israel should receive help in order to survive in a world where it is surrounded by enemies.

A. To make the American taxpayer know who the aggressor is, it is enough to publish maps of Palestine in 1940, 1948, 1956, 1967 and now, to see how Israel expanded. He will conclude that the Arabs, not Israel, need weapons and money to defend themselves.

Q. Do you see a danger of war between Syria and Israel?

A. There are no signs of the possibility of immediate war. But the continued occupation of Arab territory remains a constant cause of tension.

Q. It required a strongly anti-Communist American President like Richard Nixon to make peace with China. Now there is a strongly anti-Communist President, Mr. Reagan, who is trying to make peace with the Soviets. It is said that it might require a strongly anti-Israeli [Arab] President like you to make peace with Israel. Is this possible?

A. Neither the Soviet Union nor the U.S. occupies part of the other's territory, and this decreases the obstacles between them. In our case, our land is occupied. It is difficult to bargain about national territory. The Israelis must withdraw from the occupied territories.