An Interview with Begin
As feisty as ever, the Prime Minister seems to thrive on crisis
His pulse rate is 72, his blood pressure is 140/95, his vision is normal, and his doctors last week pronounced him in excellent condition. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, 66, who suffered a stroke last year and a massive heart attack three years ago, is embroiled in domestic political troubles and immersed in a crisis with the Palestinians. But he seems to thrive on this diet of adversity. As feisty and autocratic as ever, Begin talked about his multiple problems last week with TIME Jerusalem Bureau Chief Dean Fischer in an hour-long interview. Excerpts:
Q. Are you worried that your government might collapse before the next scheduled elections?
A. Any parliamentary government may collapse, especially a coalition government. In Israel it happens time and again. Can my government collapse? It may. So what? I'm not worried. If we have the confidence of the majority, I don't intend to resign. There may be demonstrations, there may be shouting, but I don't pay any attention to all that noise. My friends and I have the confidence of the people. I intend to serve out our term until the end of October 1981.
Q. Your former Defense Minister [Ezer Q. Weizman] has said he is hopeful your government will collapse.
A. Ah, he's hopeful it will collapse.
Q. And he is hopeful he would depose you as leader.
A. First of all, he's entitled to assume that the government will collapse. He's no less entitled to wish to replace me. What will come out of it in practice we shall see.
Q. Is this threat worrisome?
A. It doesn't touch my outer skin.
Q. Your former Defense Minister deported two Palestinian mayors and a Muslim religious leader after the Hebron slaying of Jewish worshipers. Now that you are serving as Defense Minister as well as Prime Minister, do you condone such actions?
A. [Weizman] didn't take that action on his own. He consulted me. If you ask me who is responsible for expelling them, I suppose I bear the main responsibility. If I had objected, he could not have done it. Those three men are P.L.O. men. Under the circumstances, the deportations were completely justified.
Q. Was that an act of moderation?
A. I believe I have been all my life a moderate man. What should I do more to prove it? With my colleagues, I was instrumental in signing a peace treaty with Egypt. My colleagues and I gave back to Egypt the whole Sinai Peninsula, including two airfields considered among the most sophisticated in the world. We gave back the Alma oilfield, which we discovered and drilled. We got a fourth of our annual oil consumption from that field at a cost of $150 million. We returned it for the sake of peace. I may blush when I say this, but when Vice President Mondale came out to greet me at Andrews Air Force Base, he used the following words: "On behalf of President Carter, I greet you as a hero, a hero of peace."
Sometimes I am called an obstacle to peace. But I ask you, can an old man of 66 change? First to be a hero of peace and after 14 months to become an obstacle to peace? What did I say after [the attacks on the Palestinian mayors]? Horrible crimes were perpetrated in the cities of Judea and Samaria [the West Bank]. I ordered an investigation, and we shall continue with that investigation until we find the culprits. They will be apprehended and brought to a court of justice. Did any Arab ruler ever say so after the murder of our men? At any time for the past 32 years, since Israel came into being? There is this moral difference. Not only did we condemn those assassination attempts, we promised to bring them to justice.
Q. Does the possibility that a Jewish terrorist underground movement has been created concern you?
A. We are a country of law and justice and due process. Before we have at least prima-facie proof, let us not voice our suspicions. Our chief of staff told the foreign affairs and defense committee they might have been Jews and they might have been Arabs. It is a fact that Arabs kill Arabs in this country. But I do not exclude other possibilities. I say whoever did it perpetrated a horrible crime. And I do not say that Mr. Shaka'a [mayor of Nablus] is a friend of Israel. He is not. But he is a human being. And nobody is entitled to try to kill him. It is a horrible tragedy. But how can I say there is a Jewish underground if I do not have proof? If we find proof, we shall say so. We shall not cover up anything.
Q. Do you think the stalemate in the autonomy talks creates a climate in which extremists on either side tend to fill the vacuum?
A. Not at all. It doesn't have anything to do with it. This stalemate will pass. I think we shall renew our talks very soon. I have lately had a very friendly exchange of letters with President Sadat. He expressed deep friendship for me. I expressed deep friendship for him. But he suspended the talks. I asked him to suggest another date and we shall consider it.
Q. Do you regard your positions on the issues of security, East Jerusalem and the powers to be given the autonomy council as negotiable or nonnegotiable?
A. If we suggest continuation of the talks, it means I want to negotiate. But we have differences of opinion. If Egypt's proposals on security are adopted, there will be permanent bloodshed. If we are not responsible for security, the P.L.O. will come in. Every proposal on security made by General [Kamal Hassan] Ali [Egyptian Foreign Minister] is a contradiction of the Camp David agreement. That agreement never mentions that the self-governing authority should be responsible for security. President Sadat said there should be Arab sovereignty over East Jerusalem. It is our capital city. He cannot dictate to us what we should do with our capital.
Q. Do you think the talks will resume before the American presidential elections in November?
A. What connection do our autonomy negotiations have with the American presidential election? I don't accept it. I don't interfere with the democratic processes of America.
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