An Interview with Begin

Despite the euphoria at the conclusion of the Camp David summit conference, there remained disagreement between Israeli Premier Menachem Begin and U.S. officials on several key elements of the accords. The Israeli leader discussed these and other issues in an exclusive interview with TIME. Highlights:

Q. Who had to give up the most?

A. Nobody gave up his principles at Camp David. The Israeli delegation stood by the principles of its peace plan, which is a good one. It was good when it was presented in December, and it is good now as well. We did not ask President Sadat to give up his principles.

Q. Didn't Sadat have to give in on his demand for the return of all Arab territories?

A. Well, I can't speak for President Sadat. What I do know is that it was agreed upon that the question of sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip will be left open. This was the key to the agreement, because we--and I believe this with all my heart--have a right and a claim to sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip. But there are other claims. So our idea was: "Let us leave the question of sovereignty open--undecided --and let us deal with the human beings." The Palestinian Arabs will have autonomy, full autonomy. And we shall have security, mainly through the fact that Israeli defense forces will be stationed in Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip.

Q. What happens at the end of the five-year transition period?

A. We of course will say we claim sovereignty of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza district. Others will come and they will say we claim sovereignty. What can be the outcome? We can't say what kind of an agreement, but what we can stress is that at Camp David we sometimes had problems that seemed to be insoluble and we still resolved them, because this is the nature of human brains. [If] there is an agreement between the parties negotiating--then everybody will rejoice that there is an agreement. And if there is no agreement, the [present] arrangement for Palestinian autonomy and Israeli security will continue. So in either case nothing wrong can happen. Therefore, I am optimistic about the future.

Q. What was actually agreed on about the building of new settlements on the West Bank? The Americans say it was agreed that there would be no new settlements for the five years of the transition period.

A. I didn't give such a commitment. Yesterday in the White House I asked President Carter, "Mr. President, did I give you such a commitment about five years?" He said, "No, you didn't give me such a commitment."

There are some divergences of opinion about what was actually agreed upon on this issue. But as my two colleagues who were with me during the conversation with President Carter are now in Israel, I just have to consult them. I have my perception, and there is an American opinion which differs, but I can't do anything but to promise that I will compare notes with my friends who were present at the conversation.

Q. When you say "compare notes," do you mean literally that there is no official record?

A. I don't write notes. But I understand that Secretary Vance took notes, that the President took notes. But we compare notes in our memories as well. I come to Jerusalem. There the sky is blue and memory becomes clear.

Q. But you don't see this disagreement as a block that would prevent a peace treaty?

A. No, it shouldn't be at all. Not at all. Not at all. The serious issue now between Egypt and Israel is the settlements in northern Sinai. Those settlements were established by the previous government as a buffer zone so that the Gaza Strip has its peace and we have our peace. But for President Sadat it is an issue in which he says, "I can't." So now a decision will have to be taken by the Knesset. We have to obey parliament.

Q. Do you feel that you are in any political difficulty at home?

A. It's quite serious. Some of my best friends, my most beloved friends, are against this policy. I think they will vote against it in the Knesset. They also criticize the agreement, even in very sharp language. They criticize me, of course. It is their perfect right to do so. The Frenchmen have a philosophical expression, c 'est la vie, such is life.

We have now an agreement. The framework for peace signed by Egypt and Israel is almost a peace treaty. We solved the problem for the peace treaty 98%. Now, imagine, it may be very soon, there is a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. It's a revolutionary change in the situation of the Middle East. I believe it is the proper road and I will continue.

Q. How do you rate the chances for Jordan to join in the talks?

A. We would like King Hussein to join. But until now, he demanded of us a prior commitment to go back to the lines of June 4, 1967, lock, stock and barrel, including Jerusalem. That wouldn't be acceptable to any party in Israel, except the Communists.

Q. If he doesn't join, what happens?

A. Nothing will happen. The Palestinian Arabs will have their autonomy, we will have our security. We shall live together.

Q. How can you have peace if other Arab nations oppose this agreement?

A. Perhaps there will be a change of mind. Syria is very extremist, would like to see us destroyed, etc., but Syria cannot attack us. It would be suicidal. Jordan will not attack us alone. They just can't do it. And Iraq is behind Jordan. So when we have peace between Israel and Egypt, we have de facto peace in the Middle East.

Q. What did this experience do to you personally? How do you feel after such an event?

A. I feel fine. But I felt fine before Camp David as well. The hardest worker was President Carter, because he was on all the committees. I was with my friends. He was everywhere. And usually we would go to bed at 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, even 4 o'clock in the morning. But when you have spiritual elation, the physical tiredness disappears.

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