An Interview with the President

'l am paying the price, but l am willing to do that"

These were difficult times. Yet another poll last week showed yet another drop in President Carter's popularity, with only 38% approving his performance in the White House. In official Washington, too, there was increasing skepticism about Carter's ability to govern effectively. How did the President himself feel he was faring amid these pervasive doubts about his leadership? In an exclusive interview with TIME Washington Bureau Chief Robert Ajemian, the President considered a broad range of questions and provided some illuminating insights--and some answers:

The President was having an easy day, few high-level visitors to deal with, no high-pressure meetings. During the afternoon, he stepped onto the stone terrace outside his office and sat at the round glass table where he often holds his weekly national security luncheons. It was hot and sticky, about 95DEG, but Carter kept his blue jacket buttoned, his red tie high on his collar. Only a few feet away his daughter Amy was taking her first diving lesson, and the sound of the slamming board passed through the hedge that enclosed the patio.

In person, Carter usually sounds more relaxed than he looks. Today his voice was soft and warm, but his eyes and manner were tense and alert. He has been going through a trying period during which he has been increasingly criticized as a leader who changes directions under fire, a man who allows too many policy voices and too many different signals to be heard. His laissez-faire style has left people uncertain about where the President stands. Lately he has been moving toward a more combative attitude.

Carter said he was undisturbed by the talk that his style was confusing. But he admitted that there was truth to the charge. "That confused image does exist," he said. "I acknowledge it." He decided at the outset of his term, he said, that the public had to be included in the decision-making process, especially after Watergate. "These tough negotiating points have never been debated in the American environment or American society before. In the long run foreign policy is more likely to be correctly determined, we are less likely to have serious mistakes, if the public is part of the process. I am paying the price for it, but I am willing to do that."

Carter believes the days of springing decisions on the public without prior warning are over. "I think it's accurate to say," he noted of an accord Gerald Ford had made with the Soviets in 1974, "that when the Vladivostok agreement was reached there was almost a dearth of news about the negotiations. Only when the final agreement was signed was it revealed. All of a sudden you had an accomplished fact. Negotiating points were never understood by the American public or the Congress."

The President sees positive dividends in his approach. "We have gotten some successes we might not have had otherwise. The Senate never would have ratified the Panama Canal treaties if we hadn't gone public. This time a year ago only 8% were for them and 78% against." He had the same view about the Middle East. "We have strengthened our ties with the Arab moderates. There were some elements of a potential peace settlement that had never been publicly debated: Israeli withdrawal from occupied territories, a recognition of Palestinian rights. This public scrutiny is what led to congressional approval of the arms package." He paused. "Whether this same approach will apply to the Turkish arms embargo, I don't know."

The dissonant points of view that arise from this government-by-debate are, nonetheless, confusing. One week National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski shouts at the Russians, and the next week Secretary of State Cyrus Vance cools things down. Administration officials say this is the President's tactical way of dealing with the Soviets; that Carter uses his aides to strike differing postures, deliberately keeping his own course ambiguous --and his options open. When the President wants to mute the voices, however, he does. "I don't think anyone who works with me," he said with obvious pride, "doubts that when the final judgment is to be made, I don't hesitate to make it."

What did Carter think about the charge that he had not reached enough for tested talent outside his circle of Georgians: "Well, I don't think it's an accurate description to say I am encapsulated or in an enclave and don't reach outside. The members of Congress confirm this; they say unanimously they have not had as much contact with the President or his top advisers or his Cabinet as they have with me. And I reach out to Congressmen because they represent the opinion and attitudes and perspective which cover the nation."

The President stood up and removed his jacket and put it over the back of a chair. Amy walked through the hedge in a wet swimsuit, her red-blonde hair stringy from the pool, and he pulled her to his side. She pressed against him as he continued talking about leadership, and finally broke away. Nothing distracted Carter. He caught the drift of a question almost before it was phrased, and when he answered too swiftly, he excused himself. Even in his own backyard he was quietly formal, reeling off facts and information without a glint of humor.

When the subject turned to the economy, Carter became even more intense.

He leaned forward, elbows on the table, head thrust forward. "The attitude of labor is one that causes me the most concern. The relationship between even the most dedicated Democratic Presidents and organized labor leaders has always been a rather stormy one." At this point the presidential reasonableness rather than the new defiance began to show. Labor Chief George Meany had treated him brusquely at their last meeting, but Carter did not refer to it. Instead, the Administration plans to try to work around the imperious A.F.L.-C.I.O. leader. Said Carter: "We have gotten some good response from the leaders of international unions. The retail clerks, for instance, just recently endorsed the proposal of wage increases being less than the previous two years on the average. But working people have to see first that some restraints are going to be placed on professional fees, like dentists and doctors, and on prices charged, like GM and AT&T, before they are willing to sacrifice their wage demands. The test will come when we get down to the Post Office workers and perhaps the Teamsters next year."

Cutting Government spending is moving Carter toward a confrontation with the Congress, and he sounded ready for it. He carefully avoided such a fight last year, and on reflection, thinks he should not have. When House Speaker Tip O'Neill told him then how awful it would appear if a Democratic President vetoed Democratic legislation, the image-conscious Carter paid close attention. Now the President's timidity with Congress seemed ended. "I put the 1979 fiscal year budget to bed in December, had it printed up and sent to the Congress in January," he said. "I don't intend to see that budget spending level increased." Carter sounded stubborn, but businessmen as well as Congressmen say they have become accustomed to Carter talking tougher than he acts. Told that congressional leaders believe he will back down on his veto threats, the President arched forward and said with a rolling sonority: "Anyone who depends on the belief that I will not veto a spending bill that breached the integrity of my budget is laboring under a serious misapprehension. I will not hesitate one minute to veto the bill."

Then the President delivered a much broader warning: "I think this year is going to see a good many disputes resolved only through the veto process."

Speaker O'Neill contends that the President does not truly understand the independent mood of the present Congress. Carter insists he does. But the President says he is not going to stand for the traditional inclinations of Congress to juggle figures. Said Carter: "There is a new kind of political leader, not only in the White House but in the Congress itself. They do not depend on a Speaker, or the Democratic Party, or a presidential candidate to help put them in office. I think this is one reason we are much more likely to see success in November among Democratic members of Congress than we would ordinarily expect. Their dependence relates to their own direct trust with the voters."

Carter is conscious of the people's continued lack of trust in government and repeated that he tries to deal with this in an open way. "There is a great deal of skepticism about the decision-making process. Everybody wants to be darned sure we never have another Watergate or Viet Nam. Even if Eisenhower were in the White House, there would be a much closer examination of what he did. I think it is healthy."

Has there been any harmful leaking of information in his Administration: "I have had a problem--and it comes up repeatedly--of the issuing of statements concerning a controversial matter that was approaching my desk for a final decision during the formative stage of that decision-making process. Quite often I will read in the news media the attitudes of some of my people that work at the sub-Cabinet level, at the Assistant Secretary level, views that are leaked to promote oneself and also one's ideas and views.

This robs the influence and the stability and the esteem and the chance for success of a policy once I decide it. This does create confusion in the public mind."

Then he paused for a moment and remarked in a way that seemed uncommonly frank: "You know, I think, to be perfectly honest about it, successes have not yet been notable. We have made some progress in the Middle East, on SALT, on energy, only relative success. But I don't have any reticence about addressing these inherently difficult issues. I don't fear a rebuff or a defeat so much that I am afraid to try. It would have been a devastating blow to me politically and to my image as a leader had the Senate rejected the Panama Canal treaties. [Now] if we fail, I will not regret having tried."

Moving to the subject of Vice President Mondale's trip this week to Israel and Egypt, the President considered whether an American peace plan might be necessary in negotiation.

"The next step would be an Egyptian proposal," the President said, deliberately keeping the U.S. presence minimal. "It will be given to us and then delivered to Israel. If it is constructive, then my guess is that a meeting between the two governments, certainly at the Foreign Minister level, will be likely. We will participate at that meeting if they both want."

Then Carter showed some caution.

"That Egyptian proposal probably will not be completely acceptable to the Israelis, but that is a prediction. If not, then we would try to bring about some inventory of the compatibility and the differences between the two countries and will reserve the right to propose a compromise solution. I doubt we would put in any new initiatives; it will be built almost entirely on their own proposals."

Carter talked about next week's economic summit and confessed that he went to Bonn feeling handicapped, with no energy legislation passed and Congress threatening to block any Administration import taxes on oil. He sounded his new tough note about such action. "For the Congress to take that kind of negative position, prohibiting me from exercising the prerogatives and authority Presidents have had in the past, would be a very unwise act. My guess is they will not do it, but even if they haven't, their intentions will be a factor."

New polls last week showed Carter receiving a very low rate of approval, but he maintained his indifference about negative reports. Then he added an interpretation of his own: "In many ways the polls do accurately reflect accomplishments in the highly visible projects. We still don't have an energy bill, or a SALT treaty, and we have continuing problems with inflation. At the same time the foreign policy items in which we have been successful have been highly controversial--Panama and the Middle East arms sale."

Asked whether Brezhnev lacked the level of enthusiasm for a personal meeting that Carter had illustrated by his standing invitation to the Russian leader, Carter replied: "We are not frantic to have a meeting with Brezhnev. We are not urging him to come. I think a direct meeting between us will be very constructive. My longtime understanding has been that he will want to meet with me when SALT is fairly sure. We are making good progress on the agreement and our relationship with the Soviets is stable."

How did the President like his job this month, with his popularity at its nadir?

He grinned: "Just as much as last month.

I feel at ease with our policies."

The President began to walk back toward his Executive study. His daughter stood by the door waiting. She whispered into her father's ear that she had only enough money to buy one record album, Saturday Night Fever, and she wanted a little additional to buy a second, Grease.

The President told her that a single record was enough for now, but Amy persisted, tugging on his arm. Finally, after considerable pleading, her father told her to change the subject. Then he relented slightly and said he might allow a second purchase soon. The pattern was familiar.

The President was weighing the pressure, measuring the evidence--and keeping his options open. -

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