Anatomy of a "Bold Action"

In a TIME interview, Sadat tells how and why he decided to visit Israel

In Cairo last February, President Sadat told TIME Chief of Correspondents Murray Gart and Cairo Bureau Chief Wilton Wynn that he would not meet with any Israeli leader "as long as there is an Israeli soldier on my land." Reminded of his words in another interview with Gart and Wynn just before Christmas, Sadat was asked to explain why he had changed his mind. He replied at length, and then went on to discuss other major Middle East issues:

First of all, really, I try always to adapt myself to whatever occurs and seize the opportunity at any moment to fulfill the cause of my people. When I met with President Carter last April, I remember we started discussing the nature of peace. We spent more than one and a half hours trying to reach some sort of understanding and agreement on this. As far as meeting with the Israelis, I told him, "Let me tell you quite openly and candidly and friendly, I can't do this."

When Kissinger visited with me in November 1973, we started with six points that led to the first disengagement agreement, and then to the second disengagement agreement. [It created] the momentum for the peace process to continue that has formed everything. Because Egypt and the U.S. started this peace process immediately after the October War--this made the Soviets furious until this moment. The second disengagement agreement was the last one in the step-by-step policy. We agreed we should get to the substance and to the establishment of peace in the area immediately after the U.S. elections. So after Carter was elected, he started, really, to join with me in beginning a new momentum for the peace process, because the old momentum had stopped.

I visited the United States, Carter met with all the Arab leaders. He met also with [Yitzhak] Rabin, and after that with [Menachem] Begin, and we were about to start the second phase: the establishment of peace in the area that would include all the parties concerned. In my visit to Carter last April, I told him that if we are not going to make good preparations for Geneva, there will be a setback. I proposed a working group under [Secretary of State Cyrus] Vance to contact all the parties concerned so that we could start at Geneva discussing the substance, not the procedural arrangements. But it was rejected by the Syrians. This is their habit. Whatever Egypt proposes, they reject at once, even without discussing it. The peace process started to slacken.

At the U.N. General Assembly session in September, Carter met with all the Arab Foreign Ministers and the Israeli Foreign Minister to start giving momentum again to the peace process.

Well, I suddenly found all the parties concerned--Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Israel--starting to quarrel and differ on the procedural papers. Syria said that if this is an American paper, it is a colonial and imperialist paper. If it is an American-Israeli paper, well, it is colonial, Zionist, imperialist--all these descriptions. I felt also, when President Assad sent a special envoy to me, that Syria was not serious at all about going to Geneva. The Soviet Union was starting its own tricks with the Syrians and with the Palestinians.

Well, in this dilemma, how were we to start the peace process? I considered this one of the turning points in the history of this area. I received a personal letter from Carter in his handwriting in September. It was delivered by a special envoy in Cairo. I read the letter. I wrote the answer in my own handwriting. In my answer--for the first time I am revealing this--I said the whole situation needs some bold action.

I started thinking seriously of a bold action. We have our differences with the Israelis, but the most unfortunate thing was the differences among ourselves in the Arab world on procedures. So I wanted first to make sure of one thing. Does Begin really intend to establish peace or not? Is Israel genuine in its demand for peace talks? I started my journey to Rumania. I had a very long talk with [President Nicolae] Ceausescu--tete-`a-tete. He is a real friend, and he is also a real friend of the Israelis. I asked, is Begin genuine in his will for peace? He said yes, and he gave me a summary of his talks with Begin--shortly before my visit--to prove that the man is for peace. The second question that I wanted to know was this: Is Begin strong enough or not, because I can't deal with a weak government or a weak leader, like Rabin? We had a talk before that, Ceausescu and I, about Rabin, and both of us reached the consensus that he was weak. I like to deal with a strong government and a strong man. In this respect I have to mention that I would have preferred to deal with the old lady [Golda Meir]. She has guts! Really! Well, Ceausescu told me what he discussed with Begin, and we reached the conclusion that the man is strong.

I left Rumania to visit Iran. I started forming my first impression of the bold action that I wrote about in the letter to Carter. My first initiative was this. Why not ask the five big powers in the Security Council to come to Jerusalem with the other parties concerned--Syria, Jordan, the Palestinians, Lebanon--and give every guarantee and assurance to Israel? Here would be the five big powers, with the veto and everything--richness, power, everything. Because they are heads of state, I can't tell them to sit in Jerusalem and discuss the whole problem. This would not be practical. All I aimed at is that they try to give the Israelis assurance of what will come out of this peace process, and in 24 hours, not more, agree on a paper with the principles that would allow Geneva to start.

After long thinking, I reached the conclusion this will not solve the problem of the psychological barrier between us and Israel, because I'm inviting the five big powers as if I am going to hide behind them. And the Israelis have no confidence in Brezhnev if he comes. [China'sChairman] Hua Kuo-feng supports the Arab cause, and the Israelis will not be happy with him. At that same time I was thinking of praying [during Greater Bairam, the Feast of Sacrifice] in Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. This is one of the three holiest places in the Muslim world. So I made my decision. I said, very well, this year instead of saying the Bairam prayers in Sinai, I shall pray in Al Aqsa.

After I returned from my trip, there was only a week or ten days, something like that, between my decision to ask the five big powers and my decision to say the Bairam prayers in Jerusalem. I didn't tell anyone. Not Ceausescu, nor the Shah, nor King Khalid of Saudi Arabia. No, I didn't tell anyone. It would shock them like it has already shocked them.

The time factor, I found, was not in my favor, because I could not ask the heads of state in a week to come to Jerusalem. I did not know what the Israelis' attitude would be toward this, and if, for any reason, one of the five powers declined the invitation, it might appear that they were rejecting the whole initiative. This will not bring down the barrier of distrust that is between us.

Well, I said, very well! Why shouldn't I go there myself and "face them in the Knesset? This was the start of the whole thing. I made my initiative. I gave my speech, opening the new session of my parliament. I said that I am ready to go to the end of the world. Before I made that speech in the parliament, I discussed it only with my Foreign Minister, Ismail Fahmy, who later resigned. He was not with the Knesset initiative at all. I was asked, are you serious? I said yes! If any proper invitation reached me, I am ready to go and face them in the Knesset itself. I never thought that it would have such repercussions all over the world, and among my people also. In principle, though, I knew my people would agree to this.

After I made my speech in the Knesset, I thought that the Israelis would not be happy, because I have made everything quite clear and candid. On the contrary, I was astounded, really, by the Israeli people--children, women, everyone hailing, really hailing me. I am really startled till this moment that the barrier of distrust, bitterness, hatred and so on that has been between us during the last 30 years has been broken down in 35 hours. Amazing! Really!

When I returned home, I was astounded. The Vice President was with me in the car. I told him something has happened to my people here. It has never been like that since the start of our revolution. Even in the peak of victories, even when we nationalized the Suez Canal, it was never like this.

Believe me. We are in an era of wonders. While I was in Jerusalem, I was asked, are you going to invite Begin to Egypt? I said, yes, Begin has the full right to come and address our parliament. But for certain reasons that Begin knows--we have discussed this between us--I couldn't invite him. I told him, how am I going to receive you in Egypt while your soldiers are still in Sinai? I couldn't convince my people, I told him, so let us drop this. And he was very understanding. He said yes. We agreed that this will be decided in the future. Well, when I returned to Cairo and saw the reaction of my people, it was astounding. Lots of facts which were valid a few days before, they are not valid now. So, when I was asked about the visit of Mr. Begin here, I said, "Yes, I shall be receiving him." They said, "In a third country?" I said, "What? We shall receive him in Egypt here after he returns back from the States." So the act itself--its boldness--has changed everything. Everything! Not only since February but since my visit to Jerusalem, lots of facts have been changing. This is the wonder of the whole thing. Really! Really!

When you stood in the Knesset and looked down, what did you feel?

From the moment I arrived in Ben Gurion Airport until I ended my visit and returned here, it was like a dream. You can't imagine how elated and relaxed I felt after I gave my speech. I felt really elated because I had come in a genuine spirit of candidness. I put everything before them to decide, and whatever happens after that, they will be guilty, not me again.

What is the next step?

As I have discussed with President Carter, we must give the Cairo conference more momentum. Begin will be visiting me, and, I think, immediately after this move the Cairo talks should be raised to the Foreign Minister level.

Is your goal peace throughout the area, or peace between Israel and Egypt?

The barking of the Soviet Union and the rejection camp is based on the fact that I am going for a separate peace agreement. No! For sure, the Israelis are interested in a separate peace agreement. While I was in Jerusalem, even [Ezer] Weizman, the Defense Minister, told me, "What about prolonging your visit another 24 hours so we can sign an agreement between us?" I told him, "This is not the peace that I am after. If we are not going to solve the Palestinian question and have a comprehensive settlement, we can never establish peace, and I am for peace this time. I am not for another disengagement agreement or a separate peace agreement with you at all. It must be a comprehensive settlement."

Couldn 't a separate peace agreement be forced upon you if the Syrians and the P.L.O. and the others absolutely refuse to go along?

Not at all. No one can force anything upon me, not even the Soviet Union.

How do you see the peace process evolving in the Middle East?

The most important item is security for the Israelis and for us--both of us--security agreed upon between Israel and all its neighbors in the Arab world, with all the guarantees needed so that we can have a peaceful era. I should like to see the area living in peace and the end of belligerency in one of the most dangerous areas in the whole world.

What do the Arabs have to offer the Israelis in a peaceful future? What do the Israelis have to offer the Arabs?

What will happen will depend upon both attitudes from one toward the other. Peace contradicts occupying others' land by force and contradicts also expansion. So, really, Israelis are not giving concessions at all. I don't consider the withdrawal from the lands occupied in 1967 a concession from Israel. This is an act that was condemned by the whole world in Resolution 242 of the Security Council. But we shall be giving the concessions, accepting Israel among us as one of the states in the area and living and coexisting in the area.

Do you see exchanges of trade and cultural relations?

Believe me, Begin here in Egypt could have been described as one of the wonders of the world. What will happen in the future, I don't know, but I think I have paved the way toward a civilized dealing between us. What will come after that will depend upon both parties. This approach that we have started is very promising for the future, especially when we agree upon the fact that the October War will be the last war.

Can you foresee disarmament in this area?

This is what I shall be after immediately after we sign the peace agreement.

How much impact do you think peace will have on the economy of Egypt?

Enormous! Enormous! Do you know that there are two big powers in the world now that have standing armies of 700,000? The U.S. and the Soviet Union. And Anwar Sadat also has 700,000! Can you imagine? For sure, the impact on our economy, on our reconstruction, on our rebuilding will be tremendous. Tremendous. But don't misunderstand me. It was not because of this that I went to Jerusalem. I am not trying to seek peace at any price. Not at all.

Will Syria or the P.L.O. join you in your peace initiative?

Well, it would be very difficult for the Syrians, because Hafez Assad has isolated himself by going to Tripoli and signing such decisions as he has signed. You know, Syria always wants Egypt to do the dirty work for them, and they come after that and agree on whatever they have rejected before. The Palestinians are under the pressure of Syria and the Soviet Union. So at some time they will come. But when, I don't know. But this time I am going to treat them according to their size. Whenever I reach the principal points in a comprehensive settlement, I shall submit it to an Arab summit of the Kings and heads of state. Then, after that, Syria will have to go to Israel, Geneva or anywhere to negotiate its part of this settlement. The Palestinians will also have to do the same thing. Everyone has to take his full responsibility. Before, I used to take the whole responsibility for them. This time, no.

What do you foresee for the Palestinians?

I would like to see tomorrow the withdrawal of the Israeli forces from the West Bank and Gaza. Autonomy doesn't solve the problem. The Palestinians should have a homeland, should have the right of self-determination, should have their state. My main effort will be directed toward the evacuation of the West Bank and Gaza. The details--I have something in my mind. The Palestinians and other Arab leaders should have their say also, but I shall always be concerned, mainly, with the evacuation of Israeli forces to end the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Do you have any differences on this point with King Hussein?

No. We are agreed upon the main issues.

What do you foresee as the future role of America in this area ?

What Carter is doing now--this man is trying to give the true image of America: gallantry, human rights, morality, honesty. The man is honest. Vance is honest. Carter is playing the game evenhanded with everyone, really. And that is what we anticipate from the U.S. When Nixon came here, millions hailed him because they wanted to tell you, in America, that we are, we want to be friends, and very dear friends. I have dealt with three Presidents--Nixon, Ford and this Carter. I can say that everything is improving.

You can have with Israel the special relations, whatever you like. But at the same time, you have other friends in the area. And your interests--99%--are with the Arabs, not with Israel. I'm happy because Carter has really recognized this fact, and he's playing the game evenhanded, in spite of the fact that there are special relations between you and Israel. I think Carter will leave his fingerprints on history as a true American who shows the true image of the U.S. in a new era, and that can remedy what has happened in the past.

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