New Premier of a Struggling People

Jacketless and wearing an open-necked blue shirt, Israeli Premier Yitzhak Rabin last week discussed his country's problems with TIME Correspondents William Marmon and Marlin Levin in his spare, well-organized office in Tel Aviv. During the 90-minute interview, Rabin spoke slowly and methodically while chain-smoking from two different packs of local cigarettes.

Q. What are the most serious threats to Israel?

A. The kings, sheiks and sultans of the oil countries are helping to bring about the fall of Europe. The U.S. also might be influenced by the European desire to appease the oil producers. I see a period in which the free world will be in economic decline. This has its political and military implications in terms of readiness and determination to withstand Russian aggression, especially in the Middle East.

But these dangers and others are not a threat to our existence. Israel is in a position of strength. We have learned well from the October war. And I think that the recent austerity decisions will create the kind of real understanding of what we face and mobilize the capability of the people to struggle. We are determined to struggle; there are no limitations on what we can achieve.

Q. What will Israel do if the U.N. force is not renewed?

A. We do not know what the Security Council will decide to do. But I want to make it clear that for Israel [the U.N. force] is an integral part of the disengagement agreement with Syria. Its elimination or change of role will endanger, if not more than that, the existence of the agreement. We think it is in the interest of Syria, no less than Israel, to maintain this agreement.

Q. Can Egypt still negotiate with Israel after the Rabat summit?

A. I hope this option is still open, but I am afraid Rabat has limited the capability of those Arab states that are ready to move or test the possibility of movement.

Q. Is this a victory for the Russians?

A. Yes. The Russians want to create a tougher Arab position vis-a-vis Israel because that will mean less possibility of moving toward peace. In the Arab Middle East it is well understood that the military option goes via Moscow and the political option goes via Washington. The more the situation is pushed toward the military option, the closer the Arab countries will come to Russia. I hope the U.S. understands this and continues to strengthen Israel militarily and economically; this makes the military option more difficult and brings the Arabs who have any sense back to the political option.

Q. Do you still believe King Hussein has a role to play in Middle East negotiations?

A. There can be no peace [on our eastern border] without negotiations with Jordan. Regardless of the question of [the West Bank], Israel has long borders with Jordan. Now in the context of such a peace, I believe the Palestinian issue has to be solved, and in the long term it can only be done through negotiations with Jordan. There can be but two nations in former Palestine--the Jewish state of Israel and east of it a Jordanian-Palestinian state where the Palestinians will be able to express their special identity.

Q. Do you think it realistic to expect that the Palestine Liberation Organization will disappear?

A. Despite the Rabat decision about the P.L.O., for Israel it is clear that we will never negotiate with the P.L.O. Therefore, for negotiations to proceed, developments will have to change or the Arabs will have to realize that the West Bank will be completely in our control for a very long time.

Q. You see no possibility of a shift in your position even if the U.S. recognizes the P.L.O.?

A. There will be no change whatsoever.

Q. Why are you so sure that the P.L.O. will not evolve its position to accept the existence of Israel?

A. Have you read Arafat's speech [at the U.N.]? Why should we not believe what he said? He told us that Jews are not entitled to have a place they can call their own. He told us that Jews are to live as minorities. He threatens the very essence of every Israeli. This speech was a declaration of war to the death between Israel and the P.L.O. The fact that many countries are now trying to appease those who control the oil doesn't mean that Israel should ignore the threat to its existence.

Q. Is there any realistic chance in the next five years to negotiate with the Palestinians without the P.L.O.?

A. I believe that Israel has to negotiate with Arab countries--Egypt in the south, Jordan in the east, Syria in the northeast and Lebanon in the north. We have offered territorial compromise for moves toward peace. We have agreed to move step by step, even though there are risks in this approach. We are willing to give away something real--territory--for words and paper.

Q. Don't you deny to the Palestinians the self-determination you claim for Israel?

A. I don't deny. I believe they are represented or can be represented by Jordan. Otherwise, every group of so-called Palestinians will come and say, "Negotiate with us." There will be no end to it.

Q. Do you like being Premier?

A. I wouldn't stay here if it were otherwise. There are moments of great satisfaction; there are moments of disappointment. But it is a great challenge, especially these days.

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